{"id":2450,"date":"2013-07-03T15:52:46","date_gmt":"2013-07-03T15:52:46","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/blogs.transparent.com\/esperanto\/?p=2450"},"modified":"2016-11-23T09:46:49","modified_gmt":"2016-11-23T09:46:49","slug":"nicole-i-am-your-esperanto-father","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/blogs.transparent.com\/esperanto\/nicole-i-am-your-esperanto-father\/","title":{"rendered":"Nicole, I am your Esperanto father"},"content":{"rendered":"
\"\"<\/a>

Helmut and Nicole Kl\u00fcnder (2007)<\/p><\/div>\n

Last week we had an interview with Nicole Kl\u00fcnder, a third generation native Esperanto speaker<\/a>. It became so popular that a Belgian radio station even picked up on it to interview a local native Esperanto speaker<\/a> (in Dutch). A few days later, Nicole’s father Helmut Kl\u00fcnder<\/strong> wrote me to let me know of some factual errors in my post. So, I thought I would take this unique opportunity to sit down with someone who was not only raised as a native Esperanto speaker, but also brought one up as well!<\/p>\n

It would make sense that you would best understand your family history related to Esperanto. It sounds like there was quite a funny story between your grandfather and father. Could you elaborate on that?<\/strong><\/p>\n

Mia patro tre favoris la klasikan latinan kaj la klasikan grekan lingvon. Krome li estis tre talenta pri matematiko. Kun mia avo li ofte amike disputis pri Esperanto. Post la milito, proksimume 1946, kiam la situacio estis malbona, mia avo promesis cigaron, se li lernus Esperanton, dum mia patro opiniis, ke tre ta\u016dgus lerni Esperanaton, \u0109ar tiam li povus pli efike argumenti kontra\u016d tiu artefarita lingvo. La rezulto ne estis de mia patro anta\u016dvidebla – unu jaron poste li ne nur estis membro de la refondita Germana Esperanto Asocio, sed membro de la konsilio.<\/p>\n

\"\"<\/a><\/p>\n

My father really favored Classical Latin and Ancient Greek. Besides that, he was very talented in Math. He often got into arguments with my grandfather about Esperanto. After the war, around 1946, when the situation was bad, my grandfather promised him a cigar if he would learn Esperanto. That’s when my father decided that would be a great opportunity to learn Esperanto, so then he could more effectively argue against this artificial language. My father couldn’t imagine what would happen – a year later he was not only a member of the refounded German Esperanto Association, but also a member of its council.<\/em><\/p>\n

Also, while I’m at it, what was it like growing up as a native Esperanto speaker for you?<\/strong><\/p>\n

Verdire estis por mi io tute normala. Simple estis kvaza\u016d mi parolus kun kelkaj homoj la\u016d iom alia maniero ol al aliaj homoj. La ideo, kio estas lingvo tute ne ekzistis en mia kapo, nur ek de tiam, kiam mi iris al gimnazio kie mi estis konfrontita kun la latina lingvo. Normalkaze mia patrino (kaj vershajne ankau mia avo) parolis Esperanton kun mi, mia patro la germanan. Kiam estis esperant-lingvaj gastoj miaj geavoj kaj miaj gepatroj parolis Esperanton.<\/p>\n

\"\"<\/a>

Children Esperanto Congress, Mainz 1958<\/p><\/div>\n

Really, it was just normal for me. It was as if I would speak with some people a bit differently than others. The idea of language didn’t even exist in my head. Only when I started going to school was I confronted with Latin. Normally, my mother (and probably also my grandfather) spoke Esperanto with me, and I spoke German with my father. When there were Esperanto guests, my grandparents and my parents spoke Esperanto.<\/em><\/p>\n

Miaj gepatroj atentis pri tio, ke mi havu ankau al aliaj familioj kun denaskaj Esperanto-parolantaj infanoj kontakton. Tio estis che\u0125-devena familio en Munkeno, kie mi plurfoje estis dum kelkaj monatoj gasto kaj familio Brandenburg en la apuda urbo M\u00fcnster. Li pli agha de la du filoj de familio, Ulrich Brandenburg, estis dum la infanjaroj mia esperant-lingva “\u0109ef-amiko”. Li nun cetere estas la germana ambasadoro en Moskvo.<\/p>\n

My parents were careful for me to also have contact with other families who had native Esperanto kids. There was a Czech family in Munich where I sometimes was a guest for a few months at a time and then there was the Brandenburg family who lived in nearby M\u00fcnster (Germany). The oldest of the two sons, Ulrich Brandenburg, was my Esperanto “best friend” back in my childhood days. Interestingly enough, he is now the German Ambassador in Moscow.<\/em><\/p>\n

Why did you decide to raise Nicole speaking Esperanto from birth? Which ways did you teach her Esperanto like your father taught you? Did you do anything differently?<\/strong><\/p>\n

Neniam estis la demando de kialo. Ni estis dulingva familio, la patrino de Nicole venis el Pollando, kun multaj internaciaj gastoj. Ni ne havis koncepton pri la maniero, kiel dulingvigi Nicole. Simple ni vivis la\u016d nia dulingva maniero kaj vizitis multajn internaciajn renkonti\u011dojn. Nicole ne respondis al ni en Esperanto, kio iom seniluiizigis min. Kelkaj geamikoj asertis, ke Nicole ja parolas la lingvon, sed mi neniam a\u016ddis \u015din paroli Esperanton.<\/p>\n

“Why” was never a question. We were just a bilingual family, Nicole’s mother comes from Poland, with many international guests. We didn’t have a concept of how to raise him bilingually. We just lived bilingually and visited many international meetings. Nicole didn’t answer me in Esperanto, which somewhat disillusioned me. Some friends asserted that Nicole does indeed speak it, but I never heard her speak Esperanto.<\/em> <\/p>\n

Mi estas mentoro \u0109e la tiel nomata brazila Esperanto-kurso<\/a>. Iutage mi eksciis, ke alia amiko de mi anka\u016d estas mentoro. Mi ekscivolemis kaj petis la kompletan liston de mentoroj. Kaj je mia granda surprizo aperis sur \u011di mia 12-jara filino. \ud83d\ude42<\/p>\n

I am a mentor of the so-called Brazilian Esperanto course<\/a>. One day I learned that another friend of mine is also a mentor there. I was curious and asked for the complete mentor list. To my great surprise, I found my 12-year-old daughter on that list. \ud83d\ude42<\/em><\/p>\n

Given this unique viewpoint on Esperanto history, how have you seen the Esperanto community change over the generations? How were you and your family active in the movement?<\/strong><\/p>\n

La uzo de Esperanto en la generacio de mia avo estis grandparte skriba. Mia avo partoprenis nur unu internacian renkonti\u011don, nome la faman nurembergan Universalan Kongreson en la jaro 1923. Li voja\u011dis kun du valizplenoj da mono (estis la inflacia tempo), sed la mono rapide elcherpi\u011dis kaj li devis pro monmanko reveturi anta\u016d la fino de la UK. Personajn kontaktojn mia avo havis en Nederlando, kiuj ofte invitis lin post la 2-a mondmilito kaj li havis en Nederlando enspezon per muziko (origine mia avo estis profesia muzikisto \u0109e la prusa armeo.) \u011cis la morto mia avo havis viglan korespondadon precipe kun kelkaj nederlandanoj.<\/p>\n

The Esperanto in my grandfather’s generation was mostly written. He participated only once in an international meeting, namely the famous Nuremberg Universal Congress in 1923. He travelled with two suitcases full of money (due to hyperinflation in Germany<\/a>, paper bills were worth so little that people had to carry them in bulk). Unfortunately, the money quickly ran out and he had to return home before the end of the congress. He had personal contacts in the Netherlands; he was often invited there after World War II where he earned money playing music. Originally, he was a professional musician for the Prussian army. Until the end of his life, he had a lively correspondence, with Dutch friends mostly.<\/em><\/p>\n

La posta Esperanto-generacio estis multe pli voja\u011dema, voja\u011doj eksterlanden estis pli facilaj kaj \u015dajne anka\u016d malpli kostaj ol anta\u016de.<\/p>\n

The next Esperanto generation was much more likely to travel. Travelling abroad became much easier and much more affordable.<\/em><\/p>\n

Nun estas denove alia periodo. La Universalaj Kongresoj kaj TEJO-Kongresoj perdis iom da ilia signifo, \u0109ar en multaj landoj ekfloris aliaj, malpli grandaj internaciaj aran\u011doj, kiuj esti\u011dis parte tre popularoj. En Germanio ni komencis dum la fino de la 50-aj jaroj kun la Internacia Seminario<\/a>, dum la 80-aj jaroj aldoni\u011dis la Internacia Festivalo<\/a> kaj poste sekvis la Novjara Renkonti\u011do<\/a>. Tiuj tri aran\u011doj okazis \u0109iuj samtempe kaj en ekstrema kazo altiris sume 700 partoprenantoj. Krome en Germanio ni anka\u016d havas la paskan renkonti\u011don Printempa Semajno Internacia<\/a> (PSI), kie la nombro da partoprenantoj varias inter 100 kaj 200. La\u016d mi momente la aktivado en la reto anka\u016d logas multajn personojn.<\/p>\n

Now is another period again. The Universal Congresses and Youth Congresses have lost some of their meaning, because many countries have spawned their own smaller international events, some of which became very popular. In Germany, we started in the end of the 50’s with Internacia Seminario<\/a> (IS) a New Year’s event, and then the Internacia Festivalo<\/a> (IF) sprang up in the 80’s. Later, the Novjara Renkonti\u011do<\/a> (NR) joined the bunch. These three events all happening around New Year’s have sometimes attracted 700 participants in total. [To learn more about the history of Esperanto New Year’s events, please see Celebrate the New Year, Esperanto style!<\/a>.] Besides that, we also have an Easter event in Germany called the Plentempa Semajno Internacia<\/a> (PSI) with 100-200 participants each year. I believe online activity also attracts many people.<\/em><\/p>\n

\"\"<\/a>

Helmut (dwarf on left), Snow White in Esperanto<\/p><\/div>\n

Mia rolo en la E-movado estas por denaskulo nenormala. Kiel Nicole jam prave menciis, \u0109e denaskuloj mankas en ilia vivo la konscia decido lerni Esperanto kaj anka\u016d ne la necesa konvinko. Mi \u0109iam komparas tion kun la germana lingvo, kie mi ja anka\u016d ne membras en asocio por propagandi la lingvon internaciskale. Ke mi en 1967 transprenis taskon en GEJ estis pli hazarde ol intence – la siatempa prezidanto de GEJ lo\u011dis en M\u00fcnster kaj mi kutime vidis lin unufoje monate. 1969\/70 mi surprize elekti\u011dis prezidanto de GEJ sen ia anta\u016da estrarlabora sperto. GEJ tamen travivis tion. Dum 5 jaroj mi estis prezidanto, tempo dum kiu okazis la IJK en M\u00fcnster en 1974. Ver\u015dajne jam \u0109e la plejmulto forgesita estis la instalo de elektronika administrado, esence membrolisto, sur la komputilo de la universitato en M\u00fcnster. Estis modesta “datumbazeto” sur trukartoj. Dum tiu tempo mi anka\u016d estis en la estraro de GEA, kiel reprezentanto de la junularo.<\/p>\n

My role as a native speaker in the Esperanto movement isn’t normal. Like Nicole already mentioned, natives never consciously decide to learn Esperanto and also don’t have the necessary conviction. I always compare that to German, in which I’ve also never been a member in an association to promote the language on an international level. The fact that I took over a task for GEJ (Germana Esperanto Junularo) in 1967 was more random than intentional – the president of GEJ at the time lived in M\u00fcnster and I typically saw him once a month. 1969\/70 I was surprised to discover that I was elected its president without any former board experience. However, GEJ survived that. In the five years in which I was president was the time when the International Youth Congress of Esperanto<\/a> took place in M\u00fcnster in 1974. Probably most people have forgotten when we installed electronic administration, essentially a member list, on M\u00fcnster University’s computer. It was a modest “little database” on punchcards. During this time I was also on the GEA board as their youth representative.<\/em><\/p>\n

Fine de 1976 mi forlasis la estraron de GEJ, kaj transprenis aliajn taskojn en la estraro de GEA. En 1983 mi elekti\u011dis prezidanto de GEA kun multe pli juna estraro, la mezuma a\u011do de la estraranoj estis sub 40 jaroj. Dum “mia epoko” mi fondis PSI kaj IF, \u0109ar ni sentis, ke necesas pli da internaciaj aran\u011doj. En 1989 mi forlasis la estraron de GEA, \u0109ar mi sentis min post 19 jaroj iom forbrulita kaj anka\u016d mia profesio necesigis min, dedi\u0109i min pli tie. Mi kompreneble restis fidela vizitanto de la aran\u011doj. De 1998 – anka\u016d pli hazarde ol planite – mi enkadre de PSI organizis la “knajpon” [Chuck: slango por trinkejo], \u0109ar en la junularaj domoj la bufedo flanke de la domo ne bone funkciis.<\/p>\n

At the end of 1976 I left the GEJ board, and took over other tasks in the GEA board. In 1983, I was elected president of GEA with a much younger board; the average board member’s age was less than 40 years old. During “my epoch” I founded PSI and IF, because we felt that there needed to be more international meetings. In 1989 I left the GEA board, because I felt burnt out after 19 years and my profession also needed me to dedicate myself more there. I, of course, kept faithfully attending events. Since 1998 – also more randomly than planned – I organized the bar at PSI, because the buffet didn’t work well in the youth hostels.<\/em><\/p>\n

What do you see as the future of Esperanto?<\/strong><\/p>\n

Malfacila demando. La fakto, ke Esperanto travivis 125 jarojn kaj el skribtabla projekto esti\u011dis vivanta lingvo, kuraghigas. Bedaurinde estas problemo, ne nur che la E-movado, ke la homoj ne plu shatas organizighi. Mi vidas tion bone en mia urbeto, kie multaj klubetoj batalegas por resti vivantaj, ofte ne sukcese.<\/p>\n

Difficult question. The fact that Esperanto survived 125 years, from the writing board to a living language, is encouraging. Unfortunately, there is the problem, not only in the Esperanto movement, but generally, that people don’t like to organize themselves anymore. I really see that in my city, where many small clubs are struggling to stay alive, often unsuccessfully.<\/em><\/p>\n

Mi fine malka\u015du unu fantazian deziron de mi. Mi tre \u011dojus, se oni sukcesus fondi internacan lernejon, kie la instrulingvo estas kompreneble Esperanto, kien povus veni E-parolantaj infanoj dum unu jaro. La lernejo devus funkcii konforme al la instruplano de la lando, kie \u011di trovi\u011das, kaj devas esti plene agnoskata, tiel ke infanoj povus iri tien dum unu jaro sen perdi en sia lando unu lernejan jaron.<\/p>\n

Let me share a fantasy of mine. I would be ecstatic if someone would successfully found an international school where the language of instruction would, of course, be Esperanto. There Esperanto-speaking kids could go for a year. The school would need to conform to the national curriculum and be officially recognized, so that these children could go there for a year without losing a school year in their home countries.<\/em><\/p>\n

Thank you for your very interesting and unusual perspective on the Esperanto community! Readers, do you have any questions for Helmut?<\/strong><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"\"\"

Last week we had an interview with Nicole Kl\u00fcnder, a third generation native Esperanto speaker. It became so popular that a Belgian radio station even picked up on it to interview a local native Esperanto speaker (in Dutch). A few days later, Nicole’s father Helmut Kl\u00fcnder wrote me to let me know of some factual…<\/p>\n

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