{"id":3080,"date":"2018-02-19T06:28:04","date_gmt":"2018-02-19T06:28:04","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/blogs.transparent.com\/esperanto\/?p=3080"},"modified":"2018-02-19T01:42:12","modified_gmt":"2018-02-19T01:42:12","slug":"a-deeper-look-at-mem-and-si-esperanto-words-for-self-part-2","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/blogs.transparent.com\/esperanto\/a-deeper-look-at-mem-and-si-esperanto-words-for-self-part-2\/","title":{"rendered":"A deeper look at Mem and Si &#8211; Esperanto words for self part 2"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>In January, we took a look at <em>mem<\/em> and <em>si<\/em> &#8211; two words that are often misused. This month, by request, we take a closer look at some trickier cases.<\/p>\n<div id=\"attachment_3085\" style=\"width: 360px\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone post-item__attachment\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" aria-describedby=\"caption-attachment-3085\" class=\"wp-image-3085 size-medium\" src=\"https:\/\/blogs.transparent.com\/esperanto\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/19\/2018\/01\/9693217377_ea5be31a44_k-350x197.jpg\" alt=\"Photo credit: Howard Lake on Flikr\" width=\"350\" height=\"197\" srcset=\"https:\/\/blogs.transparent.com\/esperanto\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/19\/2018\/01\/9693217377_ea5be31a44_k-350x197.jpg 350w, https:\/\/blogs.transparent.com\/esperanto\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/19\/2018\/01\/9693217377_ea5be31a44_k-768x432.jpg 768w, https:\/\/blogs.transparent.com\/esperanto\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/19\/2018\/01\/9693217377_ea5be31a44_k-1024x576.jpg 1024w, https:\/\/blogs.transparent.com\/esperanto\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/19\/2018\/01\/9693217377_ea5be31a44_k.jpg 2048w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 350px) 100vw, 350px\" \/><p id=\"caption-attachment-3085\" class=\"wp-caption-text\"><strong>&#8220;si&#8221; and &#8220;mem&#8221; are both translated as &#8220;self<\/strong>&#8221; Photo credit: Howard Lake on Flikr<\/p><\/div>\n<h2>Me and my big mouth<\/h2>\n<p>At the end of last month&#8217;s\u00a0<a class=\"blue-link\" href=\"https:\/\/blogs.transparent.com\/esperanto\/himself-mem-or-si\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow noopener\">blog post<\/a> I quipped that we could probably do an entire post on the use of <em>mem<\/em> and <em>si<\/em> together. Several people commented that they would enjoy that level of depth. In the meanwhile (the very next day, in fact) I started seeing questions about <em>si<\/em> which weren&#8217;t addressed last month. It looks like there is still much to cover here, so here we go.<\/p>\n<h2>It doesn&#8217;t depend &#8211; <em>si<\/em> in dependent clauses<\/h2>\n<p>As we discussed last time, <em>si<\/em> (and derivatives like <em>sin, sia, siajn<\/em>, et cetera) refer back to the subject. Sometimes, however, it&#8217;s not obvious what the subject is. Consider a sentence like the following.<\/p>\n<ul>\n<li>\u00a0\u015ci ploras, \u0109ar li malamas \u015din.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<p>Should the last word be\u00a0<em>\u015din<\/em> or <em>sin<\/em>?<\/p>\n<p>The tricky thing here is that there are two verbs in the original sentence. To help us see what is going on, let&#8217;s start with a simpler sentence.<\/p>\n<ul>\n<li>Li malamas \u015din. &#8211; He hates her.<\/li>\n<li>Li malamas sin. &#8211; He hates himself.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<p>In this simple sentence, it&#8217;s clear to see that &#8220;si&#8221; means the guy. The reference doesn&#8217;t change when the same sentence is part of a dependent clause.<\/p>\n<ul>\n<li>\u015ci ploras, \u0109ar li malamas \u015din. &#8211; She is crying because he hates her.<\/li>\n<li>\u015ci ploras, \u0109ar li malamas sin. &#8211; She is crying because he hates himself.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<h2>Now you <em>si<\/em> it &#8211; <em>si<\/em> with invisible subjects<\/h2>\n<p>One more detail to see here, when we say that\u00a0<em>si<\/em>\u00a0refers to the subject, we really mean the subject of the verb. This subject doesn&#8217;t even need to be explicitly expressed.<\/p>\n<ul>\n<li>Mi petis al Karlo razi sin. &#8211; I asked Charlie to shave (himself.)<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<p>When we use <em>sin<\/em> here, we know that it means whoever is doing the action of <em>razi<\/em>, even if it&#8217;s expressed as an infinitive without an explicit subject. Context tells us that it means\u00a0<em>Karlo<\/em>.<\/p>\n<h2>Now you don&#8217;t &#8211; <em>si<\/em> with invisible verbs<\/h2>\n<p>Ok, so the verbs aren&#8217;t quite invisible. They&#8217;re just in disguise. Consider the following sentence which generated a question from a moderately experienced speaker.<\/p>\n<ul>\n<li>Eduardo agis tre \u011dentile kaj afable dum nia vizito al [<strong>lia\/sia<\/strong>] hejmo.&#8221;<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<p>The question was &#8211; if we mean &#8220;during our visit to Eduardo&#8217;s home&#8221;, do we say <em>lia<\/em> or <em>sia<\/em>? The temptation is to look for a subject, and the only expressed subject is Eduardo. However, just like we need to look for verbs without subjects, we need to look for words like <em>vizito<\/em> which could be described as a <em>verbeca<\/em> <em>substantivo<\/em>. The meaning here is &#8220;he was polite while we were visiting [verb] his\u00a0home.&#8221; If we tried to use <em>sia<\/em> here, it would mean the subject of &#8220;visiting&#8221; &#8211; which doesn&#8217;t make sense.<\/p>\n<h2>What about <em>si<\/em> and <em>mem<\/em> together?<\/h2>\n<p>So, maybe I can&#8217;t write an entire blog post about <em>si<\/em> and <em>mem<\/em> together &#8212; not because there&#8217;s not anything to say on the topic, but because so many interesting questions keep coming up. Last time we talked about the expression\u00a0<em>per si mem<\/em>. This time I&#8217;m going to focus on examples with the accusative:\u00a0<em>sin mem<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p>As we saw last time, <em>mem<\/em> is for emphasis and <em>si<\/em> refers to the subject. Therefore, <em>sin mem<\/em> is reference to the subject with additional emphasis. If you&#8217;re tempted to use <em>si<\/em> and <em>mem<\/em> together, ask yourself if you need that extra emphasis.<\/p>\n<ul>\n<li>La instruisto instruis <em>sin mem<\/em> &#8211; The teacher taught himself.<\/li>\n<li>la krimulo elperfidas\u00a0<em>sin mem<\/em>\u00a0en interparolado &#8211; The criminal betrayed himself under cross-examination.<\/li>\n<li>Li <em>sin mem<\/em> demandis kiel ili estas hodia\u016d, kvardek jarojn poste, tiuj nigraj okuloj &#8211; He asked his own self how they are today, forty years later, those dark eyes.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<p>The use of <em>mem<\/em> seems justified in the first two cases. In the first case, the teacher taught himself &#8211; and not the students this time. The second case could go either way, but the larger context for this sentence (from\u00a0<em>Beletra Almanako 21<\/em>) is that nobody else betrayed him, but he did it himself (emphasis.)<\/p>\n<p>In the third case, however, the <em>mem<\/em> seems superfluous. When a person <em>demandas sin<\/em> about something, it&#8217;s not like they&#8217;re running around looking for people to ask and then stop to ask themselves (and nobody else.) It&#8217;s just a way to say he&#8217;s wondering. In the same paragraph, the author wrote &#8220;<em>li promesis al si mem<\/em>&#8221; &#8211; which also strikes me as superfluous use of <em>si<\/em> and <em>mem<\/em> together, so it might be a quirk of the author.<\/p>\n<h2>Famous last words<\/h2>\n<p>You know, I think I could write an entire blog post on the difference between <em>sinprezento<\/em> and <em>memprezento<\/em>.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<img width=\"350\" height=\"197\" src=\"https:\/\/blogs.transparent.com\/esperanto\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/19\/2018\/01\/9693217377_ea5be31a44_k-350x197.jpg\" class=\"attachment-post-thumbnail size-post-thumbnail wp-post-image\" alt=\"Photo credit: Howard Lake on Flikr\" decoding=\"async\" loading=\"lazy\" srcset=\"https:\/\/blogs.transparent.com\/esperanto\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/19\/2018\/01\/9693217377_ea5be31a44_k-350x197.jpg 350w, https:\/\/blogs.transparent.com\/esperanto\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/19\/2018\/01\/9693217377_ea5be31a44_k-768x432.jpg 768w, https:\/\/blogs.transparent.com\/esperanto\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/19\/2018\/01\/9693217377_ea5be31a44_k-1024x576.jpg 1024w, https:\/\/blogs.transparent.com\/esperanto\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/19\/2018\/01\/9693217377_ea5be31a44_k.jpg 2048w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 350px) 100vw, 350px\" \/><p>In January, we took a look at mem and si &#8211; two words that are often misused. This month, by request, we take a closer look at some trickier cases. Me and my big mouth At the end of last month&#8217;s\u00a0blog post I quipped that we could probably do an entire post on the use&hellip;<\/p>\n<p class=\"post-item__readmore\"><a class=\"btn btn--md\" href=\"https:\/\/blogs.transparent.com\/esperanto\/a-deeper-look-at-mem-and-si-esperanto-words-for-self-part-2\/\">Continue Reading<\/a><\/p>","protected":false},"author":149,"featured_media":3085,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"content-type":""},"categories":[7736,1],"tags":[5105,337461,337460,337462,509843,510156,7556,9945,337466],"class_list":["post-3080","post","type-post","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-esperanto-language","category-uncategorized","tag-esperanto","tag-herself","tag-himself","tag-itself","tag-mem","tag-refleksivo","tag-reflexive","tag-si","tag-themselves"],"aioseo_notices":[],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/blogs.transparent.com\/esperanto\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/3080","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/blogs.transparent.com\/esperanto\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/blogs.transparent.com\/esperanto\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/blogs.transparent.com\/esperanto\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/149"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/blogs.transparent.com\/esperanto\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=3080"}],"version-history":[{"count":4,"href":"https:\/\/blogs.transparent.com\/esperanto\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/3080\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":3086,"href":"https:\/\/blogs.transparent.com\/esperanto\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/3080\/revisions\/3086"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/blogs.transparent.com\/esperanto\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/3085"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/blogs.transparent.com\/esperanto\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=3080"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/blogs.transparent.com\/esperanto\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=3080"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/blogs.transparent.com\/esperanto\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=3080"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}