{"id":3099,"date":"2014-04-11T19:20:01","date_gmt":"2014-04-11T19:20:01","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/blogs.transparent.com\/icelandic\/?p=3099"},"modified":"2014-06-16T11:45:58","modified_gmt":"2014-06-16T11:45:58","slug":"with-with-with-or-with","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/blogs.transparent.com\/icelandic\/2014\/04\/11\/with-with-with-or-with\/","title":{"rendered":"With with, with or with?"},"content":{"rendered":"
\"with\"<\/a>

Image of Flateyjarb\u00f3k from Wikimedia Commons.<\/p><\/div>\n

“Mig langar a\u00f0 tala vi\u00f0 \u00feig, hj\u00e1 \u00fe\u00e9r, og \u00fe\u00e1 langar mig a\u00f0 tala me\u00f0 \u00fe\u00e9r upp \u00e1 svi\u00f0i.<\/em>” Put this sentence in an online translator and you get “I want to talk to with you and allow me to speak with you on stage” as a translation. Icelandic prepositions are endlessly confusing and here are some of the worst perpetrators – vi\u00f0<\/em>, me\u00f0<\/em> and hj\u00e1<\/em>.<\/p>\n

I have to admit that the example sentence is written in a confusing manner and sounds clumsy. Still, I wanted to show you a technically correct sentence with as many prepositions that can be translated exactly the same way – as “with” – while also having a different meaning in the context, and this is the best I could come up with. By the way,\u00a0“og<\/em>” can occasionally also be translated as “with” although it’s not a preposition at all! Translating the example sentence as “I’d like to talk with you with you with then I’d like to talk with you on stage” makes even less sense than the translator’s attempt, so let’s look at what’s actually going on here.<\/p>\n

Og<\/strong><\/p>\n

Easiest one to pull apart from the confusion is, of course, og<\/em>. It means “and” and works like the English “with” does when it’s used instead of “and”. This means that in the grand majority of times when you see og<\/em> it’s almost always translatable only as “and”, therefore just thinking of it as an “and” is your easy shortcut to understanding what type of a “with” it is. As mentioned it’s not a preposition, I’m only adding it here for curiousity value. \ud83d\ude09<\/p>\n

\"with2\"<\/a>Haraldur er hj\u00e1 H\u00e1lfdani.<\/em><\/p>\n

Hj\u00e1<\/strong><\/p>\n

Moving towards the more difficult ones, hj\u00e1<\/em> comes next. Hj\u00e1<\/em>\u00a0demands that the next word is in\u00a0\u00fe\u00e1gufall<\/em> (= dative) and most commonly it translates as “at”, although “with” is also a possibility f.ex. in “a\u00f0 sofa hj\u00e1<\/em>” (= to sleep with, to have sex with). To define it means “at” as being next to\/beside something that’s not a living thing: \u00e9g er n\u00fana hj\u00e1 H\u00f6rpu<\/em> (= right now I’m beside the concert hall Harpa).<\/p>\n

There are even more translation possibilities and not all of them deal with inanimate objects, for example “mi\u00f0ar eru seldir hj\u00e1 k\u00f3rf\u00e9l\u00f6gum<\/em>” means “tickets are sold by choir members” and “(a\u00f0 vera)<\/em>\u00a0hj\u00e1 Hulda\/Vald\u00edsi\/Gunnlaugi<\/em>” means being at these people’s apartments, not just hanging out with them or even being in their presence \u00a0(they don’t necessarily even have to be with you).\u00a0“Hva\u00f0 er n\u00fameri\u00f0 hj\u00e1 ney\u00f0arl\u00ednunni?<\/em>” (= What’s the number for emergency line?), Hann b\u00fdr hj\u00e1 henni<\/em> (= He lives at her place, as in right there with her and not f.ex. next door to her). Hj\u00e1<\/em> is also used as a forskeyti <\/em>(= prefix)<\/a> in words such as hj\u00e1lei\u00f0<\/em> (= detour) and hj\u00e1kona<\/em> (= mistress).<\/p>\n

Well, now we have narrowed the example sentence down to “I’d like to talk with you at your place and then I’d like to talk with you.” Still a bit confusing but at least it’s beginning to make sense now, so let’s see the difference between vi\u00f0<\/em> and me\u00f0<\/em>.<\/p>\n

\"with1\"<\/a>Haraldur talar vi\u00f0 H\u00e1lfdan.<\/em><\/p>\n

Vi\u00f0<\/strong><\/p>\n

First of all, if you already know a Scandinavian language now’s a good time to forget everything you know of similar sounding prepositions in that language. Icelandic is that one special snowflake in the Germanic language family that does things differently and this has caused me much confusion along the way.<\/p>\n

Vi\u00f0\u00a0<\/em>tends more towards \u00feolfall<\/em> (= accusative) but \u00fe\u00e1gufall<\/em> happens f.ex. with the verb a\u00f0 taka <\/em>(= to take),\u00a0if the meaning in context is “to receive” -“\u00c9g tala\u00f0i ekki vi\u00f0 hana<\/strong> en<\/em>\u00a0\u00e9g t\u00f3k vi\u00f0 peningum<\/strong> af henni<\/em>” (= I didn’t talk with her but I accepted\/took the (offered) money from her, notice the first vi\u00f0<\/em> governs \u00feolfall<\/em> and the second \u00fe\u00e1gufall<\/em>). \u00de\u00e1gufall<\/em> is also used if you’re talking about a reaction to something, f.ex. “Hvernig br\u00e1st hann vi\u00f0 \u00fev\u00ed?<\/em>” (= How did he react to that?)<\/p>\n

As its most common usage vi\u00f0<\/em> is another way of saying “at” such as in “vi\u00f0 hli\u00f0ina \u00e1<\/em> (right next to sth\/at the side of place X). It can also mean “by” – \u00e9g \u00e6tla a\u00f0 bi\u00f0a vi\u00f0 b\u00edlinn<\/em> (= I’m planning to wait by the car). \u00a0If you see a vi\u00f0<\/em> next to a verb, pay special attention because it sometimes changes the meaning of the verb: “a\u00f0 gera vi\u00f0<\/em>” actually means “to fix”, “a\u00f0 l\u00edka vi\u00f0<\/em>” means to like – l\u00edka<\/em> here is a borrowed word from English, actually. \u00a0If you see a combination “leitast vi\u00f0<\/em>” it does not mean “search at” but “to try” in formal speech. “Eiga vi\u00f0<\/em>” can mean “to tamper\/fiddle with” and so forth.<\/p>\n

Here’s the super bad news for you: there is no rule to using\u00a0vi\u00f0<\/em>, you have to learn each situation that it appears in by heart. This will be your life-long battle if Icelandic is not your mother tongue, but on the upside this is what makes studying languages so interesting that if you’re already here reading this blog and wanting to learn Icelandic you’re probably both aware of it and are ok with it. The pay for the work is in the work itself for those who have a passion for languages. \ud83d\ude42<\/p>\n

\"with3\"<\/a>Haraldur talar me\u00f0 H\u00e1lfdani upp \u00e1 svi\u00f0i.<\/em><\/p>\n

Me\u00f0<\/strong><\/p>\n

Me\u00f0<\/em>, on the other hand, really does tend to translate as “with” in most of the cases although it, too has nuances depending on the situation. If you’re hanging out with someone the correct preposition to use indeed is me\u00f0<\/em>, and it tends to apply to all living things that you might be with. However, it’s also a crucial part of some verbs – “a\u00f0 vera me\u00f0<\/em>” (= to have, in the meaning that you’re carrying something with or on yourself) comes to mind as the most obvious example! This verb is important to get right by the way, I’ve written about it and the other two ways of saying “to have” here<\/a>.<\/p>\n

Me\u00f0<\/em> is one of those prepositions that doesn’t strictly govern any case, although \u00fe\u00e1gufall<\/em> is more common. There’s one important difference though – if you’re using it to describe with what item you did what, such as “me\u00f0 hamri<\/em>” (= with a hammer) you’re likelier to use \u00fe\u00e1gufall<\/em>, but if you use it in the a\u00f0 vera me\u00f0<\/em> form you should use \u00feolfall<\/em>.<\/p>\n

So what’s the deal with the example sentence?<\/strong><\/p>\n

In many cases the prepositions simply have a defined meaning depending on the verb they appear with, and that is the case of tala vi\u00f0<\/em> vs. tala me\u00f0<\/em>. “A\u00f0 tala vi\u00f0 einhvern\/einhverja<\/em>” means that you’re having a discussion with someone, as in you are talking with them and (hopefully) listening to their input creating a dialogue. If you were to use “a\u00f0 tala me\u00f0 einhverjum\/einhverri<\/em>“… well, it’s almost entirely incorrect in Icelandic. It doesn’t make sense on its own without some addition to it that explains the weird choice of preposition, such as “upp \u00e1 svi\u00f0i<\/em>” that I’ve used here. The nuance meaning within tala me\u00f0<\/em> is that although you’re talking with them your talking partner is not your audience. You two may bey talking together but you’re not talking to each other.<\/p>\n

Confusing enough? \ud83d\ude00 If we now look at the original example sentence again the meaning should come easily through: “I’d like to have a discussion with you, at your place, and then I’d like to deliver a talk with you on stage.”<\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

\"hulda078\"<\/a>Hulda recommends music<\/strong><\/p>\n

Today I’m going to recommend one song instead of a band, because it fits the theme of today’s post so well and is an excellent study piece for how the prepositions work in practice: S\u00e1lin Hans J\u00f3ns M\u00edns<\/em>\u00a0is the band and song is called Hj\u00e1 \u00fe\u00e9r<\/em> (link<\/a>).<\/p>\n

The images used in this blog post are originally from Flateyjarb\u00f3k. Sources: 1<\/a>, 2<\/a>.<\/em><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"\"\"

“Mig langar a\u00f0 tala vi\u00f0 \u00feig, hj\u00e1 \u00fe\u00e9r, og \u00fe\u00e1 langar mig a\u00f0 tala me\u00f0 \u00fe\u00e9r upp \u00e1 svi\u00f0i.” Put this sentence in an online translator and you get “I want to talk to with you and allow me to speak with you on stage” as a translation. Icelandic prepositions are endlessly confusing and here…<\/p>\n

Continue Reading<\/a><\/p>","protected":false},"author":91,"featured_media":3114,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"content-type":""},"categories":[91175],"tags":[91405,6,91386,91390,10341,91396],"class_list":["post-3099","post","type-post","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-icelandic-grammar","tag-advanced","tag-grammar","tag-icelandic-lessons","tag-icelandic-versus-other-languages","tag-intermediate","tag-so-icelandic"],"aioseo_notices":[],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/blogs.transparent.com\/icelandic\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/3099","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/blogs.transparent.com\/icelandic\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/blogs.transparent.com\/icelandic\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/blogs.transparent.com\/icelandic\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/91"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/blogs.transparent.com\/icelandic\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=3099"}],"version-history":[{"count":16,"href":"https:\/\/blogs.transparent.com\/icelandic\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/3099\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":3342,"href":"https:\/\/blogs.transparent.com\/icelandic\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/3099\/revisions\/3342"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/blogs.transparent.com\/icelandic\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/3114"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/blogs.transparent.com\/icelandic\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=3099"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/blogs.transparent.com\/icelandic\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=3099"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/blogs.transparent.com\/icelandic\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=3099"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}