{"id":2365,"date":"2011-10-13T08:10:04","date_gmt":"2011-10-13T08:10:04","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/blogs.transparent.com\/russian\/?p=2365"},"modified":"2011-10-13T02:30:52","modified_gmt":"2011-10-13T02:30:52","slug":"the-curious-case-of-confusing-russian-word","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/blogs.transparent.com\/russian\/the-curious-case-of-confusing-russian-word\/","title":{"rendered":"The Curious Case of Russian Words \u0422\u043e\u0436\u0435 and \u0422\u0430\u043a\u0436\u0435"},"content":{"rendered":"

\"\"<\/a>I got to learn something new about rats thanks to your comments. Now it’s pay-back time. Plus I loved this movie when it came out. Rats can be so cute!<\/em><\/p>\n

When it comes to grammar, being a native speaker of a language is a double-edged sword. Sure, native speakers tend to automatically select just the right way of saying things. However, they might not be able to adequately explain the intricacies of grammar behind their selections.<\/p>\n

So bear with me as I try to make my way through this most recent grammar question that came up in the comments to the recent post.<\/p>\n

HISTORY<\/strong><\/p>\n

In this post about the Russian words that describe animal sounds<\/a>, I mentioned that there\u2019s not a word for the sound that rats make:<\/p>\n

\u201cInterestingly,\u00a0\u00ab\u043a\u0440\u044b<\/span>\u0441\u044b\u00bb<\/strong>\u00a0[rats] stay quiet\u201d<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

To which one of our long-time readers and contributors, Rob, responded with<\/p>\n

“\u041d\u0435 \u0442\u043e<\/span>\u043b\u044c\u043a\u043e \u0432 \u0440\u0443<\/span>\u0441\u0441\u043a\u043e\u043c \u044f\u0437\u044b\u043a\u0435<\/span>, \u0430 \u0442\u043e<\/span>\u0436\u0435 \u0432 \u0434\u0435\u0439\u0441\u0442\u0432\u0438<\/span>\u0442\u0435\u043b\u044c\u043d\u043e\u0441\u0442\u0438, \u043a\u0440\u044b<\/span>\u0441\u044b \u0447\u0430<\/span>\u0449\u0435 \u0432\u0441\u0435\u0433\u043e<\/span> \u043c\u043e\u043b\u0447\u0430<\/span>\u0442.\u00bb<\/strong> [Not only in the Russian language, but also in reality, rats are most often silent.]<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

To which another long-time reader and a native speaker of Russian who goes by screen name Minority added a correction, changing \u00ab\u0442\u043e\u0436\u0435\u00bb<\/strong> to \u00ab\u0442\u0430\u043a\u0436\u0435\u00bb<\/strong>:<\/p>\n

\u00a0\u00ab\u041d\u0435 \u0442\u043e<\/span>\u043b\u044c\u043a\u043e \u0432 \u0440\u0443<\/span>\u0441\u0441\u043a\u043e\u043c \u044f\u0437\u044b\u043a\u0435<\/span>, \u0430 \u0422\u0410<\/span>\u041a\u0416\u0415 \u0432 \u0434\u0435\u0439\u0441\u0442\u0432\u0438<\/span>\u0442\u0435\u043b\u044c\u043d\u043e\u0441\u0442\u0438, \u043a\u0440\u044b<\/span>\u0441\u044b \u0447\u0430<\/span>\u0449\u0435 \u0432\u0441\u0435\u0433\u043e<\/span> \u043c\u043e\u043b\u0447\u0430<\/span>\u0442.\u00bb<\/strong><\/p><\/blockquote>\n

However, she also admitted that she didn’t know why \u00ab<\/strong>\u0442\u0430<\/span>\u043a\u0436\u0435\u00bb<\/strong> had to be used in this case instead of \u00ab<\/strong>\u0442\u043e<\/span>\u0436\u0435\u00bb<\/strong>.<\/p>\n

Now, I know for a fact that Minority\u2019s knowledge of Russian grammar is far superior to mine. So if she doesn\u2019t know for sure, I\u2019m definitely in over my head. But curiosity got the better of me.<\/p>\n

BASIC STUFF<\/strong><\/p>\n

Let\u2019s start with some basics. \u00ab<\/strong>\u0422\u043e<\/span>\u0436\u0435\u00bb<\/strong> and \u00ab<\/strong>\u0442\u0430<\/span>\u043a\u0436\u0435\u00bb<\/strong> can both be translated into English as also, both, too, as well<\/em>. In fact, they are listed as each other\u2019s synonyms in their respective Wiktionary entries<\/a>.<\/p>\n

Furthermore, Wikitionary has this to say about when to use which of these conjunctives:<\/p>\n

The word\u00a0\u00ab\u0442\u043e<\/span>\u0436\u0435\u00bb<\/strong>\u00a0can only be used when two different subjects share the same verb\u2026 If there is only one subject, or if the subjects use different verbs, then use\u00a0\u00ab\u0442\u0430\u043a\u0436\u0435<\/a>\u00bb<\/strong>.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

Kudos to yet another reader, Sarah<\/strong>, for remembering the rule!<\/p>\n

In Rob\u2019s sentence there is just one subject – \u00ab<\/strong>\u043a\u0440\u044b<\/span>\u0441\u044b\u00bb<\/strong> [rats], so clearly the correct word to use here would be \u00ab<\/strong>\u0442\u0430<\/span>\u043a\u0436\u0435\u00bb<\/strong>.<\/p>\n

Here\u2019s another example to illustrate the above rule:<\/p>\n

\u00ab<\/strong>\u0412 <\/strong>\u0434\u0435\u0439\u0441\u0442\u0432\u0438<\/span>\u0442\u0435\u043b\u044c\u043d\u043e\u0441\u0442\u0438, <\/strong>\u043a\u0440\u044b<\/span>\u0441\u044b <\/strong>\u0447\u0430<\/span>\u0449\u0435 <\/strong>\u0432\u0441\u0435\u0433\u043e<\/span> <\/strong>\u043c\u043e\u043b\u0447\u0430<\/span>\u0442, <\/strong>\u0434\u0430 <\/strong>\u0438 <\/strong>\u043c\u044b<\/span>\u0448\u0438 <\/strong>\u0442\u043e<\/span>\u0436\u0435\u00bb<\/strong> [In reality, rats are mostly silent and so are mice]<\/p>\n

In this sentence there are two different subjects – mice and rats, but only one verb \u00ab<\/strong>\u043c\u043e\u043b\u0447\u0430<\/span>\u0442\u044c\u00bb<\/strong> [to be silent].<\/p>\n

DIGGING DEEPER<\/strong><\/p>\n

Rob\u2019s sentence is \u00ab<\/strong>\u0441\u043b\u043e\u0436\u043d\u043e\u0441\u043e\u0447\u0438\u043d\u0451<\/span>\u043d\u043d\u043e\u0435 <\/strong>\u043f\u0440\u0435\u0434\u043b\u043e\u0436\u0435<\/span>\u043d\u0438\u0435\u00bb<\/strong> [compound sentence]. But what if we break it into two simple sentences instead:<\/p>\n

\u00ab\u0412 \u0440\u0443<\/span>\u0441\u0441\u043a\u043e\u043c \u044f\u0437\u044b\u043a\u0435<\/span> \u043a\u0440\u044b<\/span>\u0441\u044b \u0447\u0430<\/span>\u0449\u0435 \u0432\u0441\u0435\u0433\u043e<\/span> \u043c\u043e\u043b\u0447\u0430<\/span>\u0442. \u041a\u0440\u044b<\/span>\u0441\u044b \u0447\u0430<\/span>\u0449\u0435 \u0432\u0441\u0435\u0433\u043e<\/span> \u043c\u043e\u043b\u0447\u0430<\/span>\u0442 \u0432 \u0434\u0435\u0439\u0441\u0442\u0432\u0438\u0442\u0435\u043b\u044c\u043d\u043e\u0441\u0442\u0438 \u0442\u043e<\/span>\u0436\u0435\/\u0442\u0430<\/span>\u043a\u0436\u0435.\u201d<\/strong> [In Russian language rats are usually silent. In real life rates are also usually silent.]<\/p>\n

Would Rob\u2019s initial choice of \u00ab<\/strong>\u0442\u043e<\/span>\u0436\u0435\u00bb<\/strong> remain incorrect? Not at all! It would be perfectly ok to use \u00ab<\/strong>\u0442\u043e<\/span>\u0436\u0435\u00bb<\/strong> in this case. In fact, using \u00ab<\/strong>\u0442\u0430<\/span>\u043a\u0436\u0435\u00bb<\/strong> in this case would sound a bit strange to the native ear.<\/p>\n

Let\u2019s look at these two sentences:<\/p>\n

\u00ab\u042f \u0445\u043e\u0440\u043e\u0448\u043e<\/span> \u0433\u043e\u0432\u043e\u0440\u044e<\/span> \u043f\u043e-\u0440\u0443<\/span>\u0441\u0441\u043a\u0438, \u0430 \u0442\u0430<\/span>\u043a\u0436\u0435 \u0438 \u043f\u043e-\u0430\u043d\u0433\u043b\u0438<\/span>\u0439\u0441\u043a\u0438\u00bb<\/strong><\/p>\n

\u00ab\u042f \u0445\u043e\u0440\u043e\u0448\u043e<\/span> \u0433\u043e\u0432\u043e\u0440\u044e<\/span> \u043f\u043e-\u0440\u0443<\/span>\u0441\u0441\u043a\u0438 \u0438 \u043f\u043e-\u0430\u043d\u0433\u043b\u0438<\/span>\u0439\u0441\u043a\u0438 \u0442\u043e<\/span>\u0436\u0435\u00bb <\/strong><\/p>\n

They both mean the same – \u201cI speak good Russian as well as English\u201d, but have slightly different structure.<\/p>\n

How about this pair:<\/p>\n

\u00ab\u0423 \u043c\u0435\u043d\u044f<\/span> \u0430\u043b\u043b\u0435\u0440\u0433\u0438<\/span>\u044f \u043d\u0430 \u0440\u044b<\/span>\u0431\u043e\u043a, \u0430 \u0442\u0430<\/span>\u043a\u0436\u0435 \u0438 \u043d\u0430 \u043a\u043e<\/span>\u0448\u0435\u043a\u00bb<\/strong><\/p>\n

\u00ab\u0423 \u043c\u0435\u043d\u044f<\/span> \u0430\u043b\u043b\u0435\u0440\u0433\u0438<\/span>\u044f \u043d\u0430 \u0440\u044b<\/span>\u0431\u043e\u043a \u0438 \u043d\u0430 \u043a\u043e<\/span>\u0448\u0435\u043a \u0442\u043e<\/span>\u0436\u0435\u00bb<\/strong><\/p>\n

Again, both sentences mean the same – \u201cI am allergic to pet fish and cats\u201d. Yet \u00ab\u0442\u043e<\/span>\u0436\u0435\u00bb<\/strong> and \u00ab\u0442\u0430<\/span>\u043a\u0436\u0435\u00bb<\/strong> aren\u2019t interchangeable between the sentences.<\/p>\n

So the rule is you cannot use the same exact sentence structure with \u00ab<\/strong>\u0442\u043e<\/span>\u0436\u0435\u00bb<\/strong> that you use with \u00ab<\/strong>\u0442\u0430<\/span>\u043a\u0436\u0435\u00bb.<\/strong> \u00ab<\/strong>\u0422\u043e<\/span>\u0436\u0435\u00bb<\/strong> is added after the new piece of information, while \u00ab<\/strong>\u0442\u0430<\/span>\u043a\u0436\u0435\u00bb<\/strong> precedes it.<\/p>\n

Before it gets too out of hand, let\u2019s look at these sentences just one more time. Do you notice something? Yes, you can totally get by without either of these bothersome words using just \u00ab\u0438\u00bb:<\/p>\n

\u00ab\u0423 \u043c\u0435\u043d\u044f<\/span> \u0430\u043b\u043b\u0435\u0440\u0433\u0438<\/span>\u044f \u043d\u0430 \u0440\u044b<\/span>\u0431\u043e\u043a \u0438 \u043d\u0430 \u043a\u043e<\/span>\u0448\u0435\u043a.\u00bb<\/strong><\/p>\n

One more example:<\/p>\n

\u00ab\u0423 \u041c\u0430<\/span>\u0448\u0438 \u0445\u043e\u0440\u043e<\/span>\u0448\u0438\u0439 \u0433\u043e<\/span>\u043b\u043e\u0441. \u0423 \u043c\u0435\u043d\u044f<\/span> – \u0442\u043e<\/span>\u0436\u0435.\u00bb<\/strong> [Masha has a nice voice. So do I.]<\/p>\n

\u00ab\u0423 \u041c\u0430<\/span>\u0448\u0438 \u0445\u043e\u0440\u043e<\/span>\u0448\u0438\u0439 \u0433\u043e<\/span>\u043b\u043e\u0441, \u0430 \u0442\u0430<\/span>\u043a\u0436\u0435 \u0438 \u0443 \u043c\u0435\u043d\u044f<\/span>.\u00bb<\/strong> [In addition to Masha, I too have a nice voice.]<\/p>\n

Notice that in this case I translated \u00ab<\/strong>\u0442\u0430<\/span>\u043a\u0436\u0435\u00bb<\/strong> as \u201cin addition to\u201d, something that cannot be done with \u00ab<\/strong>\u0442\u043e<\/span>\u0436\u0435\u00bb<\/strong>.<\/p>\n

REVIEW<\/strong><\/p>\n

So, let\u2019s review the rules of using \u00ab<\/strong>\u0442\u0430<\/span>\u043a\u0436\u0435\u00bb<\/strong> and \u00ab<\/strong>\u0442\u043e<\/span>\u0436\u0435\u00bb<\/strong>:<\/p>\n

RULE 1<\/strong> – Two subjects and one verb – use \u00ab<\/strong>\u0442\u043e<\/span>\u0436\u0435\u00bb<\/strong>; otherwise use \u00ab<\/strong>\u0442\u0430<\/span>\u043a\u0436\u0435\u00bb<\/strong><\/p>\n

RULE 2<\/strong> – When in doubt, simplify – replace with \u00ab<\/strong>\u0438\u00bb<\/strong> [and]<\/p>\n

RULE 3<\/strong> – When Rule 2 is not an option, remember that \u00ab<\/strong>\u0442\u0430<\/span>\u043a\u0436\u0435\u00bb<\/strong> can also be translated as \u201cin addition to\u201d (\u00ab<\/strong>\u0442\u043e<\/span>\u0436\u0435\u00bb<\/strong> can\u2019t)<\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Are you more confused now than when you started reading this post? Let me know!<\/p>\n

Got an intractable \u00ab\u0442\u043e\u0436\u0435\/\u0442\u0430\u043a\u0436\u0435\u00bb<\/strong> situation you\u2019re struggling with? Let me know!<\/p>\n

So you think you’ve got it now?! Excellent! Then here\u2019s a question for you:<\/p>\n

What\u2019s wrong with grammar in this sentence \u00ab<\/strong>\u042f <\/strong>\u043b\u044e\u0431\u043b\u044e<\/span> <\/strong>\u0433\u0440\u0430\u043c\u043c\u0430<\/span>\u0442\u0438\u043a\u0443 <\/strong>\u0442\u0430<\/span>\u043a\u0436\u0435, <\/strong>\u043a\u0430\u043a <\/strong>\u043c\u0430\u0442\u0435\u043c\u0430<\/span>\u0442\u0438\u043a\u0443\u00bb<\/strong> [I love grammar just as I love mathematics]?<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"\"\"

I got to learn something new about rats thanks to your comments. Now it’s pay-back time. Plus I loved this movie when it came out. Rats can be so cute! When it comes to grammar, being a native speaker of a language is a double-edged sword. Sure, native speakers tend to automatically select just the…<\/p>\n

Continue Reading<\/a><\/p>","protected":false},"author":39,"featured_media":2366,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"content-type":""},"categories":[8,7828],"tags":[113315,12460,1237,1248,113812,113525],"class_list":["post-2365","post","type-post","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-language","category-russian-for-beginners","tag-confusing-russian-grammar","tag-confusing-russian-words","tag-russian-grammar","tag-russian-language","tag-tricky-russian-words","tag-113525"],"aioseo_notices":[],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/blogs.transparent.com\/russian\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/2365","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/blogs.transparent.com\/russian\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/blogs.transparent.com\/russian\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/blogs.transparent.com\/russian\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/39"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/blogs.transparent.com\/russian\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=2365"}],"version-history":[{"count":5,"href":"https:\/\/blogs.transparent.com\/russian\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/2365\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":2371,"href":"https:\/\/blogs.transparent.com\/russian\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/2365\/revisions\/2371"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/blogs.transparent.com\/russian\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/2366"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/blogs.transparent.com\/russian\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=2365"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/blogs.transparent.com\/russian\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=2365"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/blogs.transparent.com\/russian\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=2365"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}