War, disaster, famine, epidemics. I think most people will agree, the news is pretty depressing. So, here’s our version, three amusing articles taken from the Italian newspapers that didn’t make it to the front pages.
Sophia Loren Reveals Truth About Famous Photo
In a recent interview, actress Sophia Loren, 80, finally revealed the true story behind an iconic photo of her and Jane Mansfield taken nearly sixty years ago.
“Guardate la foto. Dove sono i miei occhi? Guardo i suoi capezzoli perché ho paura che stiano per cadere nel mio piatto. Potete vedere la paura sul mio volto. Sono così spaventata che ogni cosa nel suo vestito stia per esplodere – boom! – e si rovesci tutto sul tavolo”
“Look at the picture. Where are my eyes? I’m staring at her nipples because I am afraid they are about to come onto my plate. In my face you can see the fear. I’m so frightened that everything in her dress is going to blow – boom! – and spill all over the table”
It was the evening of Loren’s Hollywood debut: “La Paramount aveva organizzato una festa per me – racconta l’attrice italiana – c’era tutto il mondo del cinema, era incredibile. E poi ecco Jayne Mansfield, l’ultima ad arrivare. E per me è stato il momento in cui tutto è diventato incredibile”
“Paramount had organized a party for me – recalls the Italian actress – everyone from the world of cinema was there, it was incredible. And then Jane Mansfield appeared, the last one to arrive. And for me that was the moment when everything became incredible”
Man Destroys Car With Pickaxe
In Lissone, near Milan, a 34 year old left his house to go work, but his car, a FIAT 500, wouldn’t start. Neighbours witnessed the furious man going back into his house and reappearing moments later with a pickaxe. According to witnesses, the man begun to systematically destroy his car. The Carabinieri were called and, seeing that the man was completely out of control, accompanied him to hospital.
Rome, Tailor Made Pedestrian Crossings
In Garbatella, Rome, the faded pedestrian crossings needed to be repainted during the night, despite the fact that some of them were occupied by parked cars. The solution … made to measure stripes. The workers simply painted around the parked vehicles!
Alternately, here’s another solution that I recently found on the net:
The note reads: ‘For the Traffic Police. This car isn’t on the stripes, but the stripes are on the car’. Sì, siamo in Italia! 
Comments:
Paul:
Can’t say that I’m over surprised by the strisce pedonali pios.
Of course they painted round the car as, unfortunately, to too many Italains, the car is king.
I find the behaviour of far too many Italian drivers to pedestrians on zebra crossings one of the least attractive things about the country. I have seen frail old people and mothers with babes in arms treated with utter contempt by drivers who look like your average nice person – not a drug-crazed psycho. I myself have nearly been killed several times. I also find the reaction of many Italians to protests about this matter frankly bizarre. A lot (and this was said to me by an Italian without any prompting from me) appear to find protests about a close shave from a selfish driver as antipatico.
I have the feeling that in the bit of Italy I go to regularly things may, very slowly, be getting better.
Until they get significantly better it pains me to say it but Italy cannot be considered a civil society because of:
1: Beahavior of too many drivers
2: Behaviour of too many “citizens” who don’t see it as a major problem
3: Behaviour of the various police forces (and let’s face it there are a lot) to do very much about enforcing the multiplicity of strisce.
Geoff:
@Paul Salve Paul, although I can understand what you’re saying from the perspective of a foreign visitor to Italy, I find the statement “Italy cannot be considered a civil society” to be rather extreme.
Surely you’re not judging the roughly 60,626,000 inhabitants of the Italian peninsular to be uncivil because a certain percentage of them ignore pedestrian crossings?
I have driven across Europe many many times. I know the roads well in Italy, Austria, Switzerland, Germany, France, Belgium, Portugal, Spain, and last but not least Great Britain.
To be honest, my most stressful experiences as a driver, pedestrian and cyclist have been in Great Britain.
When I commuted around Nottingham in the UK I was subjected to horrendous uncivil behaviour and road-rage on an almost daily basis. As a cyclist it was even worse, in fact, Serena was deliberately run off the road by a raging driver when cycling to work in Nottingham. As cyclists here in Italy we have nearly always experienced very courteous behaviour from drivers.
My Italian cousin lives in Zurich, and we visit her regularly. A few weeks ago she was pushed up against a wall and fined 60 Franks by the Swiss police for walking across a pedestrian crossing when there was no traffic about at 10 o’clock at night, just because the little green man wasn’t lit on the crossing signal. Is that the kind of behaviour that constitutes a civil society?
It’s not a good idea to make sweeping judgements about a society or culture based on visits. If you come to Italy with your own cultural perspectives about how people ‘should’ behave then you’re highly likely to be either disappointed or, in the case of le strisce pedonali, put yourself at risk.
I’m not saying that people’s attitude to rules of the road are good or bad here in Italy. Unfortunately, cars bring out the worst in people, whichever country or culture you’re in.
Ovviamente, tutte le culture hanno i loro lati positivi e negativi.
A presto, Geoff 🙂
paolo:
Well i will say though that the “rule” or maybe it’s an actual law in Italy where the far left lane on the autostrade is for PASSING ONLY is the way it SHOULD be in ALL countries.
In the states, we have a situation where everyone drives at their own pace in any lane they want. This is far more dangerous to me, not to mention inefficient and rather frustrating for those who tend to drive faster than the speed limit.
paolo:
Il mio tentativo in italiano:
Ma penso che i guidatori italiani siano fedeli ai leggi riguardo le corsie sulle autostrade a parte dal fatto che molti superano il limite di velocità. Tutti rispettano la regola che la corsia della destra è per andare il limite di velocità o più lento, il centro è per andare il limite o più veloce e la sinistra è la corsia per sorpasso.
Secondo me questo è più efficiente del sistema americano o almeno il modo in cui gli americani guidano e, nonostante i “pericolosi guidatori italiani “, forse più sicuro.
Paese che vai, usanza che trovi!
Geoff:
@paolo Ecco, bravo! Infatti quella regola esiste in tutta l’Europa … teoricamente! Ma molto spesso vince la pigrizia.
Noi non siamo molto appassionati delle autostrade, e dove abitiamo noi, il pericolo maggiore sono i vecchietti che fanno 30 km l’ora, sbandano, e fanno delle soste impreviste. Di solito portano il cappello e c’è sempre un vecchio cane seduto accanto loro con la testa che dondola fuori dal finestrino 🙂
I hope you find our blogs useful, feedback is always welcome.
Alla prossima, Geoff
paolo:
I vecchietti sono dapertutto, un problema universale per la strada.
I blogs sono molto utili particolarmente quando si trattano con parlata quotidiana, le cose che loro non ti insegnano a scuola.
Grazie.
Paul:
Hi Geoff
Only just noticed your reply.
Of course I’m not saying that all Italians as individuals treat pedestrians with contempt/try to run them down. It is only a minority who do this. But a significant one. And they often do it quite spectacularly.
What I was saying, and unfortunately must stick to, is that this reflects on general society for the simple reason that I know what the widespread reaction is to folk who protest about this behaviour. In fact an Italian told me “but Paul Italians will think you mad/antipatico” if you protest. He was, nicely, trying to get me to “fit in”.
Also the action, or lack of it, by the multiple police forces who I can only assume do not feel any great pressure from their own management or CITIZENS to do anything about the issue.
My view is essentially linked to the idea that people get the politicians they deserve. ie: The all too common attitude to zebras reflects on society at large. As you seem (see below) to say yourself.
And unlike Margaret Thatcher I do believe that society exists.
I know Italy well and spend a lot of time there.
I agree with you totally about drivers and cyclists.
I much prefer to cycle in the bit of Italy I go to regularly than in London. Returns to London are often a shock in that respect.
But get off the bike in Italy, in my experience, and you become a far inferior being.
Noting this, I now often walk across zebras in Italy pushing a bike in front of me. It works. Antipatico of me perhaps, particularly when I push it some distance in front of me.
Nottingham is a nice city but I am not disputing your cycling experiences there at all.
>>If you come to Italy with your own cultural perspectives about how people ‘should’ behave then you’re highly likely to be either disappointed or, in the case of le strisce pedonali, put yourself at risk.
Ah, that does rather confirm my experience/view surely? Doesn’t it? You appear to be suggesting that I should adapt myself by accepting that many drivers won’t stop and that many many Italians won’t really expect them to. And the police will do diddly squat.
I am afraid that it is clear to me that pedestrians are often treated very badly in Italy. And far from me generalising I know that a fair few Italians and Italian campaign groups think the same. Clearly they are the awkward squad who don’t feel that they have to fit in/when in Rome ….
Only the other day on the local TV (am not in Italy at the mo but watch stuff online) there was a slot on people, Italians, publicly demonstrating about the, er, car/pedestrian interface. Italian media is full of stories of foll mown down on strisce.
Are these people behind this page antipatico? Culturally insensitive because they have forgotten that they are Italian in Italy and that things are done a certain way? Especially if you are in a car? Doomed to be disappointed or flattened on a zebra?
https://www.facebook.com/groups/398214503564654/
I am sorry but to deny this suggests that you are either an Italian with their head in the sand on a serious problem or a foreigner who has gone native and is somewhat too keen to “fit in”. I have seen examples of this.
To clarify. Why do you think I might be at risk on a zebra?
I am somewhat more than a visitor/holiday maker to Italy by the way.
all the best – thanks for the polite reply – off to see if there is a way of being alerted to updates on threads.
apologies in advance also for any typos – a bit hard typing/checking where I am.
Geoff:
@Paul Ciao Paul, wow, that’s probably the longest reply I’ve ever had! And a very interesting one too.
Reply, Part 1.
I’ll just address this section: “I am sorry but to deny this suggests that you are either an Italian with their head in the sand on a serious problem or a foreigner who has gone native and is somewhat too keen to “fit in”. I have seen examples of this.”
In all honesty, I’m neither of the above. I’m an Englishman who’s been living in Italy for quite a few years, and married into an Italian family.
I’m certainly no keener to fit in here in Italy than I ever was in England. I’ve always lived pretty much an independent life, travelled a lot, and tried to look at the world from many different perspectives. I’ll try and explain to you my attitude towards learning to live in Italy.
I clearly remember that after I’d been living here for just a couple of years, an Italian friend of ours, an air hostess for Alitalia, perfectly summed up the three stages of living in Italy:
1. Love. you fall in love with Italy, everything seems like a wonderful romantic adventure, an endless holiday …
2. Hatred. you come to despise the chaos, bureaucracy, menefreghismo, lack of infrastructure, needing to ‘know the right people’ to get anything done … maybe tomorrow etc. etc …. (if you want, you can add in ‘ignoring pedestrian crossings’)
3. Acceptance. you more or less accept what most Italians themselves say: ma siamo in Italia, cosa ti aspetti? You come to understand that Italy is only united in theory, you see how incredibly deep rooted people’s attitudes are, and that only a complete revolution, or a dictatorship could hope to make any difference to the situation.
You realise that unless you accept certain aspects of living in Italy then your life is going to be miserable. You rediscover many of the things that you originally loved about Italy. You balance up the positive and the negative and make a decision.
and those who don’t manage stage 3….. give up and go home.
All I can say is that, personally, per adesso, sto meglio qua in Italia che in Inghilterra.
caso mai, which part of Italy do you visit … do you have Italian family out here?
a presto, Geoff
Geoff:
@Paul Reply Part 2.
I want to address the whole notion of whether or not Italy is a civil society.
Without wishing to sound patronising, I too thought I ‘knew’ Italy before I moved here, as I had spent a lot of time here over the years, and I lived with an Italian in England. How wrong I was!
Your judgement of Italy and civility is based on British cultural notions that are so embedded in who you are that you don’t even recognise them. These are things that you only come to understand when you live in Italy (or another very different culture) for a long period of time and are totally immersed in the local culture.
I rarely have any contact with English people, and haven’t been back to the UK for about one and a half years. When I meet English holiday makers in Italy they feel like total foreigners to me, and it takes time to adjust to them.
What you need to understand is that the Italians do not have the same concept of Nation, and Patriotism that the English do. You mentioned that an Italian friend of yours is critical of his culture, well I’ve yet to meet an Italian that isn’t critical of his/her culture. Criticising l’Italia and all it’s many defects is an Italian national pastime, and l’Italia fa schiffo is a well worn phrase repeated by young and old alike on a daily basis.
Here’s the thing: civility in Italy isn’t something that you can judge on a national level, but it does exist very strongly on an individual level: la mia familia, i miei amici, la mia città, la mia zona ecc. ecc. And the level of civility I experience here in Italy in terms of mutual help, support and trust is unlike anything I have experienced in England for many years. Perhaps it existed back in the 60’s when I was growing up in a little Suffolk village?
A couple of examples: A while back I went into a shop in Pontremoli to buy some antique style coat hooks but wasn’t sure which size to get. The shop owner, who had probably seen me a couple of times, insisted that I took both home without paying, returned the one that I didn’t want and paid for the one I kept.
When our car was written off by some German tourists, and we were without transport (essential to us in our isolated mountain village) four acquaintances immediately offered us their cars to use. We ended up borrowing an old FIAT Panda for TWO MONTHS while our insurances was sorted, from an acquaintance who lives about 10 km from us. She absolutely refused any payment. Now there’s an interesting added cultural difference to this story: none of the Italians who heard about what happened gave a damn about the state of our car as long as WE were all right. For most Italians cars are simply a means of transport. In the UK people obsess over their holy cars.
These are just a couple of many many examples that I could cite you.
As I said, I don’t wish to sound superior or patronising, but until you are free of your own embedded cultural values, and the differences between Italian and English culture are far far bigger than you can imagine, it’s impossible to make any kind of judgement about Italy, how things works here, and why they work in certain ways.
a presto, Geoff 🙂
Paul:
Cripes Geoff
Two long answers.
I should answer – will try to keep things as short as possible in order to not try the patience of other folks.
Will have to quote you to tie the thing down but will abbreviate quotes so that length doesn’t get too much.
Apologies also that this is in English but my Italian isn’t up to such sophisticated matters.
I was maybe going to apologise for being off the topic of language but I note that the blog is headed as being about “culture”, not just the intricacies of language, tenses etc etc.
I know well the three step process you refer to. It is possible that I am further down it than you were when you arrived in Italy if someone (from Alitalia no less!) took you aside to tell you about it after you had been in italy two years.
But the step three you outline is an individual adjustment – nothing more – it says nothing about Italy. Or rather it says everything, whichever way you look at it. It’s an individual adjustment. And I have more of a foot in three than you might guess. I agree with you totally that Italy is united in theory only, though of course it is often wise to be careful when and where you say this. If you don’t tell, I won’t. sh!
>>and those who don’t manage stage 3….. give up and go home.
Ah, something often easier for expats to manage very possibly for all sorts of reasons – see individual adjyustment. It can be a very nice life in Italy. Many of the Italian young can’t manage 3 and therefore leave – find a new home. THAT is about Italy.
>>All I can say is that, personally, per adesso, sto meglio qua in Italia che in Inghilterra.
Quite – “per me”, “sto” – see above about the individual. See above about it being possible to have a very nice life in Italy. But it says nothing about Italy. And this debate is not about flag waving in any case. Please be clear – I am not saying that you are a selfish nasty person.
>>What you need to understand is that the Italians do not have the same concept of Nation
I do understand this. Totally. And this is very much the point.
>>You mentioned that an Italian friend of yours is critical of his culture
He wasn’t being critical as such when he gave me that advice. As I said, he was trying to help/stating how things are. He was right. I am pretty sure that I had not told him what the reaction was to my protests at my near death experence at the time – I was in mid-flow – he anticpated the situation. I agree with him. I found that he was right about the reaction – see above about my original point.
>> civility in Italy isn’t something that you can judge on a national level, but it does exist very strongly on an individual level: la mia familia, i miei amici, la mia città, la mia zona ecc. ecc.
Agree totally. Precisely my point. One of the people who nearly killed me was taking her dear old mum home to lunch.
And I do not doubt for a second the examples of individual kindness you describe. I have experienced similar things. But not my point and never was.
>>In the UK people obsess over their holy cars.
My point aout the Italian relationship with the car (very much a product of the post war boom of course) wasn’t about whether they obsess over then as objects/spend weekends polishing them. And even if they did spend all week polishing them it would do me no harm. Each to his own.
>>As I said, I don’t wish to sound superior or patronising, but until you are free of your own embedded cultural values, and the differences between Italian and English culture are far far bigger than you can imagine, it’s impossible to make any kind of judgement about Italy, how things works here, and why they work in certain ways.
I am well aware of the differences between Italian and British (English is an Italian usage in this context as I am sure you know) culture and I do not see this issue as some sort of ding dong between Britain and Italy.
You never did by the way answer my question about why I might be at risk on a zebra in Italy. For the benefit of someone who you think doesn’t understand the cultural aspects of this.
I did try to find that TV vid of the alien Italians with no family to go home to who had taken to the strrets to make a point about pedestrains but I am afraid that my computer skills are not up to finding it embedded in the site concerned, which tends to focus on the last day or two’s news. It would have been handy if I could have found it for you could have seen that the folk were not waving British or English flags in support of their points. And to the best of my knowledge no marks on their bodies were visible where, surreptitiously, the English mothership had inserted or indeed embedded foreign cultural values.
But I did, when I returned to the site a couple of days later, find this on the front page and saved the address before it headed to the vaults ….
http://www.videolina.it//video/servizi/73486/cagliari-investe-una-donna-in-viale-trieste-e-fugge-denunciato.html
Blog looks very interesting by the way. I will doubtless return a lot though will try to avoid commenting on it – language or culture.
Apologies for any typos, can’t spell-check
regards
Paul
Geoff:
@Paul Paul, I really don’t understand what point you’re trying to make.
Are you actually trying to tell us that although you don’t live in Italy and are not fluent in Italian you have a better understanding of Italian culture than myself and Serena (an Italian by the way), who live here, are bi-lingual, are not part of an ex-pat community, and spend all our social time with our Italian family and friends? Please tell us on what basis you are qualified to make such judgements?
I also want to point out that you misrepresented the following comment that I made: “I clearly remember that after I’d been living here for just a couple of years, an Italian friend of ours, an air hostess for Alitalia, perfectly summed up the three stages of living in Italy:”
You wrote “I know well the three step process you refer to. It is possible that I am further down it than you were when you arrived in Italy if someone (from Alitalia no less!) took you aside to tell you about it after you had been in italy two years.”
Now that really is patronising. If you re-read my comment you’ll see that I did NOT say that our friend TAUGHT me about the three stages, I said that she PERFECTLY SUMMED UP the process of coming to terms with living in Italy. I’ve often quoted what she said to other forestieri who’ve tried to settle out here because it’s a nice helpful succinct summary that they can relate to. I thought I’d share it with you in order to try and help you understand, but apparently ci sei già passato, vero?
… and of course coming to terms with living in Italy is a personal adjustment …. what other sort of adjustment could it possibly be, collective?
What you don’t seem to get is that when you brand Italy as an “uncivil country” in a blog about Italian culture and language on the basis that someone nearly ran you over on a pedestrian crossing, it sounds both naive and offensive at the same time. And so far I’ve tried to help you see that without getting troppo incazzato, hai capito?
You wrote: “You never did by the way answer my question about why I might be at risk on a zebra in Italy.”
Well here’s a thought: maybe, if you actually were an expert on Italian culture then your pedestrian crossing incident wouldn’t have happened because you would have automatically said to yourself “I’m not in England now, so I can’t expect to walk out onto a pedestrian crossing and have people automatically stop for me”.
Finally, do you consider Great Britain a ‘civil’ country?
alla prossima Geoff
Serena:
@Paul Salve Paul! Vorrei scrivere un paio di cose dal punto di vista della mia esperienza personale, come italiana che è vissuta per 13 anni in Inghilterra.
1. So benissimo che attraversare la strada in Italia è sempre rischioso, sia sulle strisce pedonali che non, tuttavia la mia esperienza peggiore l’ho vissuta a Nottingham quando un furgone con rimorchio ha agganciato la mia bicicletta mentre aspettavo al semaforo e mi ha trascinato per alcuni metri. Poi ha continuato per la sua strada senza essersi minimamente accorto di cosa era successo!
2. Cosa vuol dire ‘un Paese civile’? Vuol dire poter attraversare sulle strisce pedonali senza correre rischi? Allora GB è un paese civile in confronto all’Italia, anche se poi non si punisce uno studente che dà fuoco ai capelli della bibliotecaria perché secondo lui è una Paki, come è successo a me? I giorni di assenza di uno studente vengono registrati e criticati da OFSTED, il danno fatto ad un membro del personale nessuno lo registra. Va bene così!
Malgrado la brutta esperienza non ho fatto di un’erba un fascio, come si suol dire. Cioè non ho considerato e non considero tutti gli inglesi razzisti e violenti.
Potrei farti altri esempi ma non voglio dilungarmi.
Saluti da Serena
Paul:
Your third para from end starting here’s a thought.
We agree – lots don’t stop and aren’t expected to.
I realise that entirely – thanks for stating it.
Simples.
That was my simple point and why i don’t find le strisce a funny subject.
End of
Geoff:
@Paul Caso mai, hai capito la risposta di Serena?
Paul:
Nothing more to say really.
Point made on the news item in question.
See my last post.
And after a while I realised I seemed to be talking to a team.
No point in boring people.
I am intrigued by the fact that after the original lengthy post being in English and the comments thread, at the end there was a switch to Italian. Interesting and educational. And Italian.
I made an innocuous post on something else earlier – trust it will appear.
I will continue to read the blog which is interesting in so many ways and a good language resource.
Apologies if any typos – less than ideal typing situation.
Geoff:
@Paul Paul, se vuoi ti posso rispondere in italiano anch’io. Avevo cominciato a scriverti in inglese perché non sapevo se te la cavavi o meno in italiano, poi, mi sembrava un argomento che poteva interessare anche ad altre persone. Sì che siamo un team, io e Serena lavoriamo assieme fin dal inizio.
Non so se ce l’hai fatta a capire la risposta di Serena, ma siccome ci sembrava che tu ti proponevi come un esperto della cultura italiana, lei ha deciso di risponderti nella sua lingua madre.
Magari ti piacerebbe risponderle in italiano anche tu, ed esprimere il tuo parere su quello che ha scritto Serena. Ci piacerebbe sentire la tua risposta.
P.S. il motivo per cui gli altri tuoi commenti non sono stati pubblicati subito è perché l’indirizzo mail era diverso, e quindi andavano approvati di nuovo.
Dicci tu in quale lingua preferisci ricevere le nostre risposte, ti va bene?
Saluti da Geoff